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IAC Seafire? Options
Opadag
Posted: Monday, January 30, 2012 10:48:52 PM
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Hi Digglyda
Just to help you re a Seafire with folded wings etc, I photographed this Seafire III serial 146 at a display in Shannon last year.


so I hope that helps.
welcome to the forum, hope you get loads of fun from the hobby and enjoy the forum, great help here when needed1
David
Edgar Brooks
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 1:44:19 PM
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The official Supermarine drawing states that the colour is "To sample supplied," which implies it was an Irish colour.
It also states that the interior was to be to standard Spitfire scheme, which seems to indicate that the exteriors were not painted in the cockpit grey-green. The cockpit colour was not a primer, but a top coat, which went over a (light or medium) grey self-etch primer; also, BS381C:283's official title is "Aircraft Grey Green," not Cockpit Grey Green. During the war, the Air Ministry did all of their own colour experimentation and ordering, through Farnborough; British Standards offered their assistance, but were (politely) told, "Thanks, but no thanks."
Stencils, e.g walkway lines, on the exterior, were largely required to be red, not black.
Edgar
FiSe
Posted: Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:00:02 PM

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Hi Edgar,
Thank for your input.
As I've said in my previous posts, I think that there is no reason why not to believe J. Maxwell and P. Cummins, when they say that the original delivery colour of the Seafires was Interior Green/Grey-Green, as we, modellers, know that colour, or Aircraft Grey Green as is the official name.
I had a theory about use of that colour a years ago, when building my, inaccurate, Seafire. I thought that after the war there was a pile of airframes and aircraft of various versions and pile of supplies, paints, spare parts and so on, which were no use to anybody anymore - and they have been paid for. Those handful of Seafires for Irish Air Corps was, perhaps, welcomed venture for Vickers, but it wasn't what it used to be in previous years when 100s of aircraft were shifted out from factory gates and business has to make profit.
I doubt that they would go through the trouble and expenses of developing new shade to match sample supplied. They've just look at the paint stock and the sample and said cool, this one is close enough.

The only answer would be to check Vickers /?/ factory archives to see if there is any stock in/out file. I am guessing that we would need 7-10 litres of cellulose paint plus thinners to spray Spit in single colour. Cellulose, roughly 1:1 with thinners, thats 14 - 20 liters. That's plenty.
If there is a hint that certain quantity - say 100-120litres - of some new 'Irish Green' paint arrived during the time of refurbishment of those machines we'd hit bulls eye. And if there is an evidence that stock of Interior/Aircraft Grey Green went down of certain amount - and it would be larger than usual amount, then there is a pretty good chance that this was used on the Irish aircraft.
I am not arguing here, just my thoughts.


Filip
trpsarge
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:21:39 PM

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The colour is that of great mystery, I've seen the various bits but no one will ever match it exactly as it has faded after 60 years. Its one of those things , you pick a point in time and model the aircraft as you see it it.

The model in question SH LF111, thats exactly what it is,but its not a shake and bake model,its got lots of problems and takes some work, but it ticks all the right boxes.



It was like that when I got here...can't blame me!
trpsarge
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:26:51 PM

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It was like that when I got here...can't blame me!
Opadag
Posted: Monday, February 20, 2012 4:49:45 PM
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That's as close as "damn it" to my old eyes.
If as Edgar Brooks suggests the colour was "as sample supplied" then I wonder if in the bowels of the D of Defense or Military Archives there might be a reference.
But Edgar's "BS381C:283's" is good enough for me.
If anyone has an iPhone there is a "useful" app called iModelkit, which allows one to compare paints and even photograph an acft and match the colour.
For BS381c:283 it shows the following:
GunzeC # C364
MMAcryl # 4850
Pollyscale # 505270 as being a match, but the samples are all close, but different, which just shows how awkward the problem is.
David
noelh
Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 1:21:33 PM
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'As I've said in my previous posts, I think that there is no reason why not to believe J. Maxwell and P. Cummins, when they say that the original delivery colour of the Seafires was Interior Green/Grey-Green, as we, modellers, know that colour, or Aircraft Grey Green as is the official name.'

I would have gone along with that idea except for the fact that I had a piece of a Seafire which had both interior green and the external colour side by side on the same piece of metal. I matched it to light slate grey and there's a certain logic to that that. Light Slate Grey is a naval colour and they were Seafires. Stocks of that paint would be readily available.

It's an awful pity I mislaid that piece. Otherwise I would send it to Joe Maxwell and put it to rest for good. Ah well!
trpsarge
Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:18:18 PM

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Paddy Cummins and I studied the two same sections of Seafire , Top engine cowling and port side engine cowling for the same amount of years, we've both see the different shades underneath and how the final shade was presented . I have no problem supporting what it is.

The big problem being Paddy is a photographer and a retired pyschriatric nurse, and an amateur historian, and has never built a model in his life, his reports are based on what he has seen and not on what he knows about paint, which is a knowledge that he acquired from a professional in the paint business who after 50 years of dealing with paint and having owned the bits mentioned above still would not give an opinion other than that based on time , conditions, painting history, undercoats, finishes, mixes etc. Day one it was 'interior green'..day 2 it was interior green plus what ever took place in the mean time..after five years, and a different service operator!

Case in point.. greys on ships..from a distance all look the same.. for a two year period Eithne was painted two shades, one from the main deck up, another from the main deck to the waterline.
My self and mate were charged with painting from the main deck from the waterline one saturday morning..we weren't happy so we decided to have some fun. We continued the upper decks colour to the water line as opposed to the shade it was supposed to be.It took three weeks for anyone to cop it!!!!!


Things are not always what they seem, step back look again and throw in the factors, things changeBanging


It was like that when I got here...can't blame me!
FiSe
Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012 8:50:29 AM

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Funny that you've mentioned that 'modelling side of things'... I'm taking this discussion as pure academic matter, because, if we are talking about the right shade of green as a modellers, than it's pure waste of time. Even if we have exactly-precise-spot-on shade to the original shade and will spray it on my kit and use only the basic weathering techniques on it, like shading, panel lines wash, drybrushing, it'll change colour considerably straight away.
And then some more 'in' techniques like chipping, light modulation, not to mention that dreaded scale effect.

In my opinion, any shade from Aircraft Grey-Green to light Slate Grey or similar is pretty OK for the scale replicas of Irish Seafires.

Now, the real life story from my own experience: I am coating some of the carbon fibre frames for a bike shop, they had some samples made in China with RAL number for one of the colours, which they didn't supply. I have used totally different shade for the first few frames I had in my shop - and using it ever since. Well it's still Light Blue, but it's mica instead of solid and it's got slight greenish hint to it, but officially the right colour is that from the RAL scale.
In a few years time somebody will try to dig out the right shade of the Blue used on those bikes, he might find that official RAL No and some examples with my Mica paint, mystery is born...chew on that :o)Whistle

Filip
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